I received a link this morning to a news story about a prisoner on death row claiming that he's too fat to be executed. Here.
I have to admit to not being too sympathetic to the needs or conditions of prisoners. Actually, I believe that they should have no rights as citizens. When you commit a crime against someone you should forfeit your rights. I'm not suggesting that we take away TV's and weights and books, all those things that enable them to occupy their time and vent, but they shouldn't be allowed to have some of the rights afforded to them.
So, in this case, prisoner Cooey's public defender is claiming that his weight will counteract the injection drug and his death will be excruciating. Oh, sorry. Any more excruciating than the rape and murder of the two young women he's imprisoned for? Frankly, I don't give a crap if his death is as long, as painful, and as humiliating as what his victims experienced.
When I was stationed in Japan the Marine Corps had to lock the base gates every time there was a public hanging because Marines would make their way to the executions and take pictures. Now, I wouldn't be there with my digital camera securing images for future relishment, but I do wonder if bringing public hangings back would correct some of our more wayward citizens. Brutal or not, a public hanging brings with it shame and humiliation for the condemned and it sends a resounding note to the public.
It might not be the answer, but it's sure better than letting prisoners sit in their cells eating Ho Ho's by the crate, now that they know being fat is a defense.
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12 comments:
Okay. Gonna have to do some agreeing and disagreeing here.
When you commit a crime against someone you should forfeit your rights
What rights do you have when you actually have no freedom? They shit in front of hundreds of other inmates. They share a 7' x 7' cell with 4 other people (kinda like being in a troop ship for us...). They can't go outside or eat when they want to like we can. Their activities are planned and enforced. They can't wear what they want, eat what they want, watch what they want...so what more rights do they have? A right to a shitty public defender? Goody for them. Prison is no cake walk, regardless of what people who have never been there will tell you.
his weight will counteract the injection drug and his death will be excruciating
I agree. Fuck him. Gee, so sorry you might hurt a little before you die, fucker.
Now...as a civilized society, we're not supposed to be okay with that. We treat people civilly, even if we are to kill them. But hey...rape and crimes against kids? Fuck 'em.
Marines would make their way to the executions and take pictures
We are sick, sick fucks. More poeple should thank us for being on their side rather than the other side.
a public hanging brings with it shame and humiliation for the condemned and it sends a resounding note to the public
What note is that? That we are backwater brutalists? No. You get to die in front of the people you harmed and in front of a small jury of your "peers." That jury is the "public." Case after case, study after study, shows that laws and actions created for "deterrent effect" actually have no effect. They seem, to rational people like you and I, that they would because as rational people, we are indeed turned-off by the prospect of a harsh punishment. That's why we don't have anarchy. But rapists have a problem. They're not rational to begin with. You can levvy the harshest penalty you can think of...death...and it doesn't matter. They're still gonna do it. Drugs? Addiction and poverty make thousands of people every year, regardless of the penalty, deal or do drugs. Murder, you name it...circumstances and mental health issues drive someone to break the law regardless of the stiffness of the penalty. Public hangings and executions would prove nothing more than we really really like to fucking kill people. Proof's in the puddin'...despite harsh sentences and death penalties, crime rates rise. They lower when you fund programming, education, recidivism reduction and the like.
There is a laundry list of prisoner rights though. Find a rep for the ACLU to list them for you or Google it. They have the right to wages (and subsequent wage increases) for work they perform. They have the right to a paid education. They have the right to sue. They have the right to medical treatment, sometimes surpassing the treatment provided to honest citizens whose only crime is shitty or no health care. They have the right to three squares a day including some foods those same poor, honest citizens mentioned above can't afford.
I know it's not a cake walk, but it's not the chain gang days of old either.
I couldn't agree more on your note regarding the rationale of people. How rational is the druggy mom that kills her infant by using the baby's anal cavity as a repository for smuggled drugs?
have the right to wages (and subsequent wage increases) for work they perform
In Michigan, that's 25 cents an hour. And they just doubled the cost of everything in the commissary. It takes a prisoner an entire week's worth of work to buy 1 pack of smokes. Some "right."
They have the right to a paid education.
Because it's a good idea to incarcerate someone for 5 years and not educate them so they are guaranteed to return to a life of crime?
They have the right to sue
Not really. Only if the judge departed (meaning went higher than the sentenec prescribed in the sentencing guidelines) when he or she gave the sentence, or only if there was clearly fraudulent evidence used in convicting someone who is otherwise innocent. Other than that, tough shit.
They have the right to medical treatment, sometimes surpassing the treatment provided to honest citizens whose only crime is shitty or no health care
They have the "right" to medical care because they are wards of the State. In other words, the state, by incarcerating them, is responsible for them. They get sick, it's on you to fix them. But "better" treatment??? In Michigan alone, we have the highest rate in the nation of untreated co-occurring mental health disorders. When you get cancer in prison, it's a death sentence. Last year, the number of prisoners leaving prison on parole who also had Hepititus C tripled and achieved such an epidemic level that the CDC was released to Michigan to figure out why. Some "right" to health care that is.
They have the right to three squares a day including some foods those same poor, honest citizens mentioned above can't afford
I don't recall seeing filet mignon, lobster au gratin or crab-stuffed jumbo shrimp on any prison menu. Imagine what would happen in a prison full of violent offenders, who outnumber the guards 50:1 on a good day, when you take a meal away. Much of what happens in a prison is to occupy the prisoners and maintain an environment that as safe for the employees so they don't get killed as it is for the prisoners so they don't kill each other. Let people pay their debt to society, and let those who are no danger back out so they can lead productive lives.
It's the difference between who we're mad at and who we're afraid of.
I would also point out that 25% of Michigan's entire General Fund money is tied up in the prison system. With that kind of money, imagine what we could do with education and health care!
Crap, Smitty- I forgot that you were a democrat. heh heh
My point is that there are several groups out there advocating for prisoners rights. I've never spent time in prison so my perspective is about as limited as when I might discuss drag queens. Opinionated, subjective, possibly skewed, biased, etc.
My point of view is that any right afforded to a prisoner is too much. The definition of 'right' is clearly up for grabs, that's understandable. I do believe that the system is designed to keep prisoners occupied thus not killing guards and each other. I can respect that. But I get tired of hearing family members of incarcerated folks crying about how hard it is on their kin. I don't care.
So when I rant, that's where it's coming from. It irks me that 25% of the gen fund is tied up like that. It makes me want to bitch about what's broken with the system.
And when was the last time you saw a prison menu? I'm starting to wonder about you Smitty. You do some Shawshank Redemption or something?
You do some Shawshank Redemption or something
HA! No. A very good friend of our family did 5 for drug trafficking, though. But when he got out, he had friends and family waiting to give him jobs and a better life than before. Plus...I just can't let you rant for free, that's all.
My comments are not to villify you in the least. You don't need to justify your opinions to me...what was it almost every Gunny in the Corps has said? Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one and they all stink.
It irks me that 25% of the gen fund is tied up like that. It makes me want to bitch about what's broken with the system
And you have achieved my point in all of this. Prisoners or not, they're Americans still and get to enjoy some rights even if they don't deserve their freedom. The better argument is what is broken about a system that incarcerates 1 out of every 100 Americans and does nothing to improve their lives afterwards, nor anything to encourage a better life as a preventive measure. Easier to lock up someone who fucks up than treat a broken system, no?
"And you have achieved my point in all of this. Prisoners or not, they're Americans still and get to enjoy some rights even if they don't deserve their freedom."
And to add to Smithy’s well-informed, pinko rant…
Not every prisoner has earned themselves a death sentence so, should we not treat the illnesses of a burglar, who has been sentenced to only five years, therefore turning their five years into death? Should we not afford him some sort of ability to bitch when he is mistreated, because lesser crimes don't usually deserve torture? Should we ignore the eight amendment to the U.S. Constitution that prohibits cruel or unusual punishment?
I knew that early on I should provide some caveat to my thinking here. I don't believe we should condemn prisoners of consensual crimes or crimes that don't hurt anyone but the person committing the crime. (Drug use, prostitution, etc.) But the hard core rapists, baby killers, WarMachine enthusiasts, etc. THOSE people don't get my sympathy. I would agree that petty criminals should have rights to some things.
Damn- I sound like those flip flopping presidential candidates now.
I consider myself a pragmatic conservative and I am anti-death penalty. If someone were able to develop procedures where it would be fair and correct, I may consider it, but that hasn't happened. Instead we have a system that mostly kills poor people that can't afford decent lawyers and kills plenty that are actually innocent. DNA evidence has exonerated more than a few.
Frankly, I think the rest of the country should abolish the death penalty so that we can leave the ranks of the top executers. We are currently number 5, behind such paragons of virute as China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan.
I'll admit that I have little sympathy for murderers (and felons in general), but our justice system shouldn't be based on emotional responses. I agree with Smitty. I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that the death penalty is any deterrent to crime.
In 1900, prison inmate Charles Justice developed some improvements for the electric chair and was paroled. While on parole, he killed someone and was subsequently given the electric chair. I would say that if anyone would have a good idea of what the electric chair would do and that it was a deterrent, it would have been him.
I have never agreed more with Steves than I do now.
Obviously death isn't a deterrent but I don't believe that most criminals expect to get caught and actually face a death squad or some other mechanism of death.
So then what is a deterrent to crime if not punishment?
Until someone can find an answer, the country will fall back on the tried and re-tried practice of execution for the most heinous of crimes.
P.S. Since we are not created equal and we don't respond to issues in a standard manner, we cannot be expected to respond to standard measures or practices. And since punishments can't fit the criminal, and be fair, they must fit the crime. It's not a perfect system, but it's not the worst.
So then what is a deterrent to crime if not punishment?
I see your strawman and knock it down. I never suggested that there be no punishment, just that the death penalty is not an effective deterrent. Many states, including our own, don't have a death penalty and experience the same rises and falls in crime rates as do places like Texas and Florida. It seems that there are other factors, such as urbanization and poverty that have a more profound effect.
It's not a perfect system, but it's not the worst.
No, it is one of the better ones, IMO. I do believe we incarcerate too many non-violent criminals and we need to consider some alternatives to incarceration, such as halfway houses, BARJ, and make better use of probation.
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